Akira Watanabe Meijin purchased a computer that reads 80 million hands per second and introduced deep learning software (6)

Set a trap

In order to win the Sugimura tournament, it is better to let them think first. After that, computer shogi has a situation where the evaluation value is absolutely wrong, so it seems that you can get rid of it if you put such a place first.

Watanabe ... Are you absolutely wrong? Is it because it's a short time?

Sugimura : Even for a long time, there are places where I make mistakes in some cases. For example, although it has decreased recently, it is the same type as the bishop exchange, and it is ▲ 4 four steps and ▲ 45 steps.

Matsumoto Oh, that's a famous guy.

Sugimura ▲ 4 5 steps △ Same step ▲ Same silver △ 5 5 silver ▲ 2 4 steps △ Same step ▲ 25 steps, the winning percentage of the second player is extremely low in computer shogi. Even so, there are holes that can pierce △ 4 four steps. It seems to be advantageous to put such things first.

Watanabe : When we consider doing it at home, it seems that it will stop quite a bit per phase. If that happens, do you think that you don't need a lot of joseki? It's not a quick point, so I think it's because I can read it anyway.

Sugimura How is it? If you stop at one stage, you may not be able to get out of the strange evaluation. (Returning to the story of the book) The method of making the book is completely different depending on the developer. As one method, a book file that uses only the evaluation value is not very reliable, so stop it somewhere, let it play more and more, and make a database of where to make a mistake. It's a method of creating joseki like poking. It's like playing a series of games, branching the game record, discovering something that seems to be misunderstood here, and guiding it there.

Watanabe : It's similar to doing something with humans (laughs)

Sugimura : That's because we don't have any strength, so we automate it. With that kind of feeling.

Watanabe : We usually make traps. In this situation, I think I would probably make a mistake if I didn't consider it.

Sugimura That's right. There are people who say, "Computer shogi, there are so many software that make mistakes in this situation," so some people say, "It tends to be advantageous to make it that way." Some people say.

Watanabe Yes Yes. It seems that only Mr. Chida asks if he is a professional shogi player who uses that "software joseki". I don't really understand what that means (laughs)

Sugimura That's right. I don't think there are many people who use joseki in the database in the first place.

It's amazing that Mr. Chida Matsumoto makes it himself.

Sugimura Moreover, he also released it for computer shogi.

Watanabe (looking at the monitor) Oh, it's a screen I've never seen.

Sugimura : On the screen in "Shogi GUI", the book is shaped so that even humans can see it, but there is a book tree. That's why some people manage it. I mean, I'm Mr. Chida.

Matsumoto : I don't use it either, but can I naturally learn how to operate and manage it while doing it?

Sugimura If you have that kind of feeling (laughs)

Watanabe Maybe no one is using it ... (laughs). What we are doing is arranging them side by side in consideration, naming and saving each battle type, and when considering it, we will put out the file again and overwrite it again.

Sugimura Certainly, there was also a professional shogi player who manages the game record file.

Watanabe , it's increasing steadily.

Sugimura : I think there are various research styles, whether to use a game record file or a joseki file.

It seems that I haven't heard much about the story of Go player Matsumoto studying while making a joseki tree.

Sugimura : I think that many developers automate the creation of joseki files. Since it is branched in continuous games, I think that there are few situations where you forget to consider it.

(Open the book file)

Sugimura : In the example of "For example, you can make a book like this", it is a common Waki ​​system.

Watanabe Who made this book?

Sugimura I made it. Of course, I have no strength at all (laughs)

Watanabe No, no, that's right (laughs)

Sugimura : I really don't have the power to play (laughs). Let's play continuously like this and measure the winning percentage. Then, you can make a book like "Shogi software is wrong in such a place, so the first move is quite advantageous."

Matsumoto : To the untrained eye, this aspect still looks like a common early stage of the Yakura Waki ​​system.

Sugimura : You can see the "recruitment rate," "number of games," and "win rate," so if you look at it, it seems that the winning rate of the latter is already 15% in this situation.

Watanabe : Well, can't you win that much? ??

Sugimura : You can do that much. It's about computers. So I would like to know what it would be like to see it with the human eye.

Watanabe : For humans, this situation is five minutes ...

Sugimura : If you're a computer shogi player and the first player makes a mark of trying to squeeze the opponent's software, the winning percentage is about this.

Watanabe Where do you make a mistake? Then please proceed a little. As before, this isn't it. ... Oh, I understand! Certainly, if you read this book, you will get sick.

Sugimura : This also points to 3103 stations (between software), and I say that the latter is the best for a while ... Oh, for example, this is the place. In this situation, △ 6 Gouma is the best. However, in fact, the winning percentage is higher for △ 8 6 steps, which only points to 34 stations.

Watanabe : I often join this shogi later, but if it's software, I'm not sure about the timing of ▲ 1 three steps. If you let me read it, I will change it immediately. But human beings are evenly matched. Before this, there was Amahiko-Kajiura (July 2021, Ryuo Battle Main Battle ▲ Amahiko Sato 9th Dan- △ Hirotaka Kajiura 7th Dan), and it was this shogi, but it was a win. It's hard for humans to take the initiative and point. Because the enclosure is fluent.

Sugimura (Proceed a little) With this, the winning percentage is 5% at 610 stations. This is the first win.

Watanabe : This is software, so the first move wins. But if you are humans, you can't win first. I see.

Software and research methods evolve

Sugimura : I saw the shogi place (of the previous machine) earlier, but maybe the thread settings were a little sweet.

Watanabe I haven't messed with it at all.

Sugimura Then, do you change that too?

Watanabe Yes, please.

Sugimura (Looking at the engine) Thank you for using Mizutaku (laughs).

Watanabe How much does it change if you play around with it?

Sugimura: Thinking speed is about twice as fast. Also, there is not enough hash memory. It is better to increase this to the last minute. Hash is pretty important. It's a table that stores aspects, so if you overflow it, you'll forget about it. So sometimes I get strange evaluation values. The water master has raised it to 1024 by default. However, if that is the case, it may not be strange to lose about 70% in a long game to the water master who has set it properly.

Matsumoto Oh, it's true that the NPS has doubled.

Watanabe : Was it about 3 million a while ago?

Sugimura : That's 6 million, so it's doubled.

Watanabe : I wasn't able to master it at all (bitter smile). But maybe everyone is like that. I don't know who to ask (laughs). I think everyone knows only about Mr. Fujii, but I can't ask Mr. Fujii (laughs).

Matsumoto That's right (laughs)

Sugimura Certainly, Professor Fujii also sets dlshogi himself.

The fact that Bishop Matsumoto has changed the first move for the first time in a while may of course reflect the trend of the entire shogi world, and in a series of battles with Ryuo Toyoshima (Eiou), the tactics will be rotated. There may be a mix, but can you guess that there was something new in dlshogi?

Watanabe That seems likely. He said that he would be asked about that in an interview. But there are few people who can hear such specialized things.

Sugimura : I read in someone's article that "I introduced dlshogi at the end of the year." The reason why the DL system has become popular recently is that DL won the electric dragon battle (November 2020), so "Oh, DL has become so strong", so all the developers became DL. I've made the transition. It was introduced at the end of the year.

Watanabe It's early! I'm watching.

Sugimura : It should be difficult to introduce.

Watanabe : When did you become so interested in computers? You learned from Mr. Chida when you were in the third stage of the encouragement party, right?

Matsumoto : At the beginning, I think it was like using an ordinary computer in his living room. After that he quickly became familiar with it.

Sugimura : By the way, in an interview, you said, "I want to make a computer shogi if I have time."

Matsumoto By the way, Mr. Taniai (Hiroki 4th Dan) made it. It was completed in 2 days.

Mr. Sugimura Taniai is really amazing.

Watanabe You did it on YouTube.

(One day in July, at Watanabe Meijin's house)